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As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse

 

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-07-02, 12:47 PM (ET) As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse at least as far as I'm concerned! The war on Iraq is successful I guess. It's deflected attention away from a 911 investigation and has people having to spend their time going out and protesting the war rather than protesting 911! I'm starting this because as someone noted the other was getting huge. Here is about the last thing I added to the last thread. I call this strange. If you look closely you can see the lower part is still standing but instead of being able to see any of the vertical ribs of the building or the corner of the building it looks like they are exploding. I think it looks bizarre. Plaguepuppie added another pic on the old thread that looks weird too. I noticed there's another thread about the strange pools of melted steel in the WTC with seismic events right before they fell. it looks interesting but I havent had time to check it out while I'm sending letters to congress and making phone calls. See this was is being extremely sucessful!

re7141 (2 posts) Oct-07-02, 02:13 PM (ET) 1. As yet STILL unanswered questions about the WTC collapse Fascinating picture. To me, it doesn't appear the vertical ribs are "exploding" but are "shaking" extremely violently causing concrete to turn to dust. Question is what would cause a massive structure to shake like that? Floors pancaking down or something in the basement rattling the columns?

ewing2001 (3251 posts) Oct-07-02, 06:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #2 3. seismic statistics twin towers LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-02 AT 06:09 PM (ET) Yesterday at our desk at the protest in NYC i received the information, that BEFORE the Twin Towers collapsed, the seismic rates jumped to 2.1/2.3. (please bear with me, if this was not paraphrased scientifically correct) I know the guy who runs the Flight93 seismic page, but never heard about irregularities at the Twin Towers as well. My source told me to look at the official website of the Columbia University Earth Institute. Unfortunately i have no time to analyse and even read my search results, but i hope i found and pasted the correct page and you are able to scoop it down on credibility or if it fits the original statement: http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/news/story11_16_01.html Earth Institute News posted 11/16/01 Contact: Danielle Bizzarro For Immediate Release Columbia Earth Institute (212) 854-7893 dbiz@ldeo.columbia.edu Harvey Leifert America Geophysical Union (202) 777-7507 hleifert@agu.org Damage to Buildings Near World Trade Center Towers Caused by Falling Debris and Air Pressure Wave, Not by Ground Shaking, Columbia Seismologists Report in November 20 issue of Eos Researchers Call for Seismographic Stations in Urban Areas On September 11, seismographs operated by Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, recorded seismic signals produced by the impacts of the two aircraft hitting the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center, and the Towers’ subsequent collapse. While the ground shaking was consistent with the energy released by small earthquakes, it was not sufficient to cause the collapse of or damage to the surrounding buildings, as some have thought. Rather, the buildings around the Twin Towers were impacted both by the kinetic energy of falling debris and by the pressure exerted on the buildings by a dust- and particle- laden blast produced by the collapse. Writing in the November 20 issue of Eos, published by the American Geophysical Union, seismologists from Columbia’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory outline the sequence of seismographic recordings on that tragic day, and argue that vibrations recorded on September 11 were of a magnitude thought to be too low to cause structural damage to buildings, especially in the northeast region of the United States. However, the authors add that because there were no seismographic stations in or even near the World Trade Center, it is impossible to know for sure that the ground-shaking did not have any impact on the neighboring buildings. Ultimately, they say, urban officials should consider the importance of placing seismographic stations in high-density urban areas. "Our recordings were made at considerable distance," said Won-Young Kim, who is in charge of seismological network operations for Lamont-Doherty. "However, plans are pending for an Advanced National Seismic System (ANSS) that calls for placing seismic instruments in such urban areas as New York City. The tragic events of September 11 show that such instrumentation can serve a purpose that sometimes transcends strict earthquake applications." Seismic recordings on E-W component at Palisades, NY for events at World Trade Center (WTC) on September 11, distance 34 km. Three hours of continuous data shown starting at 08:40 EDT (12:40 UTC). Two largest signals were generated by collapses of Towers 1 and 2. Expanded views of first impact and first collapse shown in red. Displacement amplitude spectra in nm-s from main impacts and collapses shown at right. Note broadband nature of spectra for collapses 1 and 2, whereas relatively periodicmotions for impacts 1 & 2. The paper was authored by 12 researchers at Lamont, including Kim; Lynn Sykes; Klaus Jacob, Paul Richards and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Lerner-Lam is the director of Columbia’s new Center for Hazards and Risk Research. Lerner-Lam explained what happened once the planes hit the World Trade Center, and how they resulted in relatively small seismographic readings. "The energy contained in the amount of fuel combusted was the equivalent to the energy released by 240 tons of TNT," said Lerner-Lam. "This energy was absorbed by the buildings and produced the observed fireballs, but did not immediately cause the collapse. During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage– but not causing significant ground shaking." Seismographic recordings of the tower collapses were recorded in five states, as far away as 428 kilometers <266 miles> in Lisbon, New Hampshire. Lamont’s home station, in Palisades, New York, is located above the Hudson River, 34 kilometers <21 miles> from downtown Manhattan, where the towers stood. The aircraft impacts registered local magnitude (ML) 0.9 and 0.7, indicating minimal earth shaking as a result. The subsequent collapse of the towers, on the contrary, registered magnitudes of 2.1 and 2.3, comparable to the small earthquake that occurred beneath the east side of Manhattan on January 17, 2001. The Lamont seismographs established the following timeline: 8:46:26 a.m. EDT <1240 UTC> Aircraft impact - north tower, Magnitude 0.9; 9:02:54 a.m. EDT <1302 UTC> Aircraft impact - south tower, Magnitude 0.7; 9:59:04 a.m. EDT <1359 UTC> Collapse - south tower, Magnitude 2.1; 10:28:31 a.m. EDT <1428 UTC> Collapse - north tower, Magnitude 2.3. In addition, the seismic waves were short-period surface waves, meaning they traveled within the upper few kilometers of the Earth’s crust. They were caused by the interaction between the ground and the building foundation, which transmits the energy from the impacts and the collapses. The authors also noted that as seen in television images, the fall of the towers was similar to that of a pyroclastic flow down a volcano, where hot dust and chunks of material move in a dust/mud matrix down the volcano’s slope. The collapse of the WTC generated such a flow, though without the high temperatures common in volcanic flows. The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory operates 34 seismographic stations in the northeast in collaboration with several institutions. Network operations are supported by the United States Geological Survey. The network is part of the Advanced National Seismic System, a national seismological monitoring initiative being implemented through a USGS-university partnership. The paper by Won-Young Kim, Lynn R. Sykes, J.H. Armitage, J.K. Xie, Klaus H. Jacob, Paul G. Richards, M. West, F. Waldhauser, J. Armbruster, L. Seeber, W.X. Du, and Arthur Lerner-Lam, "Seismic Waves Generated by Aircraft Impacts and Building Collapses at World Trade Center, New York City," appears in Eos, Volume 82, number 47 (20 November 2001), page 565. Journalists may request a copy of the paper from Harvey Leifert, hleifert@agu.org, specifying a pdf or fax version. Please include your name, publication, postal address, phone, fax, and email address. There is no embargo. To speak with any of the researchers listed above, please contact Stacey Gander, Administrative Assistant, at Columbia’s Center for Hazards and Risk Research: (845) 365-8909 or staceyv@ldeo.columbia.edu. Web site for the Lamont-Doherty Cooperative Seismographic Network: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/ The Columbia Earth Institute © GROUND ZERO Forum NYC http://forums.delphiforums.com/ground_zero2001 http://www.ourdna.org/ http://www.lebensaspekte.de/ 911Skeptics worldwide unite! Supporter of the 911-Skepticism Movement NYC, Washington, San Francisco, Connecticut, Ohio, Portland etc... Support public LIHOP-evidence now, SETUP later! http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm http://www.lihop.net/ Martin Luther King III, Nina Hagen, Spooky, Patti Smith got our files! 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(telephone bills, phone research, PR costs, media tools,video distribution, hardware upgrade, security solutions, provider costs, various investigations etc...) Info at http://www.lebensaspekte.de/groundzero/donation.html 911Skeptics in the media: http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.conspiracy.0912w NOTE: Any use of non-standard English words that are in quotes within this post should not be construed by any member of DU as prejudice against Southern people, African Americans, Asian people, Northern people, Arabic people, Jewish people, Christian people or any other group save one. These words are blatant prejudice against STUPID people.

2muchbs (1189 posts) Oct-08-02, 00:27 AM (ET) Reply to post #3 4. Another strange pic for review, again LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 00:30 AM (ET) Yes, its saved in my FTP space, and yes its a touch blurry. If you look around the web you will find it posted, and it appears clearer. I found this smoke and debris jetting from the structure below the collapse mind numbing. But so many others could have cared less. This little bit from above can safely be trashed: "The energy contained in the amount of fuel combusted was the equivalent to the energy released by 240 tons of TNT," said Lerner-Lam." I don't know what planet this guy is on, but his theory is highly misleading. It's not how much energy was released that's of importance, but the rate at which it was released. 240 tons of TNT? Come on give us a break. That comparison is ridiculous. By the way what was the method of containment? The open atmosphere? Must be some of that new jet fuel I have heard so much about. lol. Bill

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 01:54 AM (ET) Reply to post #3 6. Pyroclastic flows "The authors also noted that as seen in television images, the fall of the towers was similar to that of a pyroclastic flow down a volcano, where hot dust and chunks of material move in a dust/mud matrix down the volcano’s slope. The collapse of the WTC generated such a flow, though without the high temperatures common in volcanic flows. " At last, someone else bothers to comment on this! "This huge amount of very fine dust seems to virtually fall in place, much of it within the outlines of the former building. This created a pyroclastic flow, or perhaps more properly a turbidity current: a slurry of dust and air much denser than the air around it, that can accelerate to considerable speeds as it falls." (from http://ontario.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=7336&group=webcast) Pyroclastic flows and turbidity currents are well known in geology. Turbidity current is a more general term, usually used to designate the underwater equivalent of pyroclastic flows. These occur when sediment along the edge of a continental shelf slump in a kind of avalanche, creating a "fluid within a fluid" of sediment mixed with water that is denser than the surrounding medium. Anyone who understands the physics of turbidity currents will see why it is so remarkable that such an effect could occur in a building collapse. For this flow to have formed, and formed as soon as it did, the building materials had to be pulverized and energetically mixed with air from very early on in the collapse, virtually from the moment of onset. There can be no question that a very large energy input is needed to reduce an intact building to a slurry of dust and debris. And until it has had time to accelerate the weight of the building cannot supply that kind of energy. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 01:26 AM (ET) 5. Some points on photo analysis This is indeed an interesting picture that illustrates several of the anomalies that can be seen in the twin tower collapses. However the vertical striations you see are not actually the outer columns being vibrated or exploding, but something just as strange, and something that is visible in many other photos and videos. The vertical stripes are arising from the object at the bottom right of the photo, the diagonal element with a darker area under it. This is a large steel panel that appears to be a portion of the outer wall that has remained bolted together and is falling as a unit. As it falls (this can be seen much more clearly in the videos) it leaves behind a thick trail of dust which creates the appearance of vertical columns. What is strangest about this is that the steel itself appears to be disintegrating as it falls, turning into metal dust in much the same way as the "spire" that is left after WTC-1 fell (see my web page for more on the spire). There are several video clips, and stills like the above, that show large chunks of the outer wall falling - though actually remarkably few of these large pieces can be seen falling as opposed to the very uniform slurry of fine dust and small pieces of steel that makes up most of the collapse. But where these large pieces can be seen they are trailing thick clouds of dust behind them. Needless to say there is no way that dust from other construction materials, say gypsum or concrete, could be pouring off these objects so long after they start to fall. And on closer exam of the videos there is an unmistakeable attenuation and softening of these pieces as they fall, suggesting that it is indeed the steel itself that is giving rise to the dust trails. Here is a video of the WTC-1 collapse that shows this same "softening" process in steel that is still standing: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/close-up_north_tower.mpg (2.8MB file) Notice how, after the top of the building has dropped out of the frame, the vertical structure a little right of the middle of the frame (which appears to be a piece of the outer wall to the right of the corner of the building facing us) quickly begins to droop and curl over, at the same time that it gives off thick clouds of dust. I'll try to find some good clips to show free-falling pieces doing a similar disappearing act - I have to do a little searching to find a good clip that isn't too long. One other interesting feature of the picture is the large number of short pieces of steel columns, about one floor in height, that can be seen along the leading edge of the dust cloud. These pieces can be seen in a number of pictures, and seem to be ejected at high speed just ahead of the main dust/debris cloud. This picture shows more of these "chopped-off" pieces of steel, and a large chung trailing thick dust. Lots more interesting stills at http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/thumb.asp?categoryID=4 The obvious question is how these pieces of steel were broken off so uniformly and thrown out so energetically. The same issue that applies to the creation of so much fine dust applies here: what is the energy source, and what is the mechanism? No account of this is even attempted in the "official" explanation of the collapses. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-08-02, 02:41 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 7. If something was exploded in the sub basement that took out the whole support columns wouldnt necessarily do it either. I remember reading of some guys theory that the towers were designed and built to collapse on demand. As crazy as it sounds that seems like the only thing that would explain it to me. They are talking pyroclastics. Virtually, the only time that occurs is from volcanic activity, the most awesome power on earth. I don't see the trade tower collapse as that cataclysmic of an occurance

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 04:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #7 8. If something was exploded LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 04:38 PM (ET) LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-02 AT 04:32 PM (ET) If you look at the seismic tracings of the collapse (the original, not the blow-up) you'll see that there is a very energetic spike very close to the onset of shaking in each collapse. In fact they go "off scale" and cross over the other tracings on the page: These very large spikes are clipped off on the enlarged tracings, but are clearly the most energetic part of the events and take place in about the first second of the ~10 sec. of waves seen in the blow-ups. This means that the strongest ground shaking, and so the highest energy release to ground, happens very close to the onset of the collapse. If the collapse begins because of failure of trusses, floor pans, etc. there should be very little seismic energy being transmitted to the ground in the early stages of the collapse. Instead we would expect the greatest energy at the end of the 10 seconds when the wreckage hits the ground. Some sort of cutting charges at the bottoms of the 47 core columns would definitely create a big seismic impulse, being closely coupled to the bedrock. By comparison nothing happening high up in the towers could have transmitted such a big impulse to the ground - the tower itself would have attenuated too much of it. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-08-02, 05:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #8 9. There would have to be other charges throughout the building tho it seems. It's weird, you look at these pics of the tower and all you can see is a column of concrete dust and regular length pieces of steel flying out of the column like an eruption. Wouldnt the pieces of steel be of different lenghts? Could the floors collapsing break the steel beams in half and hurl them out like that? I sure got no idea! It looks to me like the whole building just disintegrated instead of collapse. Could looking at the original blueprints for the building show it was built to be demolished easily if need be?

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-08-02, 11:20 PM (ET) Reply to post #9 10. How the perimeter columns were assembled The 14" square box columns came in pre-assembled units 3 floors long, so it is indeed strange that they broke into so many ~1 floor long pieces. The 3 floor by 3 column assemblies were staggered so that the end connections did not line up with the ones on either side. You can see this jagged 3 column step effect on the edges of some of the bigger pieces. In spite of all this overlapping and reinforcement, very little of the outer walls seems to have fallen in interconnected chunks like the pictures above. Instead the columns seem to have chopped themselves into nice clean 1 floor pieces. From chapter 2 of the FEMA report: "The buildings’ signature architectural design feature was the vertical fenestration, the predominant element of which was a series of closely spaced built-up box columns. At typical floors, a total of 59 of these perimeter columns were present along each of the flat faces of the building. These columns were built up by welding four plates together to form an approximately 14-inch square section, spaced at 3 feet 4 inches on center. Adjacent perimeter columns were interconnected at each floor level by deep spandrel plates, typically 52 inches in depth. In alternate stories, an additional column was present at the center of each of the chamfered building corners. The resulting configuration of closely spaced columns and deep spandrels created a perforated steel bearing-wall frame system that extended continuously around the building perimeter. ... Construction of the perimeter-wall frame made extensive use of modular shop prefabrication. In general, each exterior wall module consisted of three columns, three stories tall, interconnected by the spandrel plates, using all-welded construction. Cap plates were provided at the tops and bottoms of each column, to permit bolted connection to the modules above and below. Access holes were provided at the inside face of the columns for attaching high-strength bolted connections. Connection strength varied throughout the building, ranging from four bolts at upper stories to six bolts at lower stories. Near the building base, supplemental welds were also utilized. Side joints of adjacent modules consisted of high-strength bolted shear connections between the spandrels at mid-span. Except at the base of the structures and at mechanical floors, horizontal splices between modules were staggered in elevation so that not more than one third of the units were spliced in any one story. Where the units were all spliced at a common level, supplemental welds were used to improve the strength of these connections. Figure 2-3 illustrates the construction of typical modules and their interconnection. At the building base, adjacent sets of three columns tapered to form a single massive column, in a fork-like formation, shown in Figure 2-4." Notice the great lengths the designers went to to prevent the kind of breaking off at each floor that seems to have happened so easily in the collapses. And notice too how strong the connections between adjacent columns were: 52" tall steel plates welded between adjacent columns at each floor. Yet most of the outer columns broke off into little pieces not connected to anything else What immense force could break all those welds and bolts, chop up the columns, and send the pieces flying? It certainly wasn't gravity, which unfortunately leaves explosives (whole shitloads of them, distributed widely through the structures) and/or some kind of unconventional energy weapon. Being a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, I personally suspect both. "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-11-02, 07:01 PM (ET) Reply to post #10 30. One comment I had on the info in this post I've never done construction welding, I'm more of a fabricator. In general, each exterior wall module consisted of three columns, three stories tall, interconnected by the spandrel plates, using all-welded construction. Cap plates were provided at the tops and bottoms of each column, to permit bolted connection to the modules above and below. I have fabricated parts to do more 5th wheels, trailer hitches and snow plows than I care to think about and, even tho I'm an excellent welder, I would never just leave it at a weld. Safety requires that you drill and bolt the piece together and then weld it so that there is a back up if the weld should ever break. I can't hardly believe that they would have all-welded construction with no safety bolts. They used safety bolts at other joints it specifies in the snip above. Little things like these make me wonder if they weren't constructed to do what they did on 911.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-09-02, 02:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #9 11. Another pyroclastic slurry One big chunk visible on lower left, shedding big dust trails. Also some debris on upper right that seems to be flying up! Clearly a very energetic event, lots of finely pulverized stuff being blown out to the sides. And note the glow on the upper left - this is not a trick of the light and shows up in numerous pics and videos. Here's a video clip (11.4MB mpeg but worth the d/l) that shows the very bright and persistent glow that develops as WTC-1 hits the ground: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/tower_2_afterglow.mpg "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 11:05 AM (ET) Reply to post #11 12. Watched that video saw the light, that is weird and I noticed something else you may or may not have noticed. After the building is completely down, you can still see a very tall sliver of the building standing along what would be your right as you watch it. It stands there for quite sometime and then jsut seems to DISINTEGRATE INTO DUST. There is no way the tower collapsing causes this because the tower is already down! Check it out, something is very, very wrong with that. It doesn't fall or anything, it jsut plain disintegrates into duist as it's standing there. I actually downloaded the clip and played it on media player   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 12:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 14. That is the so-called "spire"... It was pointed out in the previous thread by plaquepuppy. Here is his link... http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html   Remove | Alert

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 12:46 PM (ET) Reply to post #14 15. OK couldn't imagine that everyone in this bunch had missed that up till now! The thing is, nothing in the world that I know of would make something come apart and fall straight down like that. It's a hard enough stretch believing the towers themselves did it, what we're seeing in that spire is impossible by everything that I know of. It looks like sci-fi, like a disintegration beam being used.

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 01:12 PM (ET) Reply to post #15 16. The video is not clear enough... to establish for sure, for me anyway, that the spire turns to dust. Those who say otherwise claim that the spire became laden with dust as the rest of the tower fell. Then as the spire fell, the dust comes off and obscures the actual fall of the spire itself.

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-09-02, 01:59 PM (ET) Reply to post #16 17. OK, I can even go along with that, but why did it fall straight down, like the towers did? Instead of falling over like a tree or buckling and falling over. It falls straight down. Just very, very weird. Best evidnce I've seen yet IMO.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Endimion (48 posts) Oct-09-02, 03:29 PM (ET) Reply to post #17 18. Could someone give me an explanation what is wrong with this picture? Here we see pretty big piece of outer support lying sticked in ground, but WHAT kind of support? It is a part of outer support that was situated immediately above lobby of each tower. Check some pictures of ground lobby before 9/11. I think the "gap" between floors is in fact 4th floor. But how could 4th floor piece of outer support suddenly "jump" over WTC3 ? WTC3 is being destroyed partially only by ~8th floor. Suggests, comments? Evil piggies are everywhere...BEWARE

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-09-02, 04:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #16 19. About the dust There are pictures of this thing just after the dust cloud has settled that show it to be squeaky-clean of any dust: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-230496.html Or here perhaps starting to shed some dust from the lower end of the part visible: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-image.html--graphic.html And here just after it has turned to dust: http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-230497.html This is way more dust than could have been sitting on the surface of the columns, and even if there had been some it would have fallen at about the same rate as the steel. But there's no question of what the video shows, even if it isn't perfectly sharp: this very tall object falls straight down, and soon after starting to fall(~1/3 of the way down)the sharp outline of the steel columns disappears, leaving a narrow vertical pillar of dust that falls at a slower rate, but still almost vertically. I didn't notice this the first few times I watched this clip - the glow was what really impressed me. But as I was getting ready to send it to someone this funny spire thing caught my eye. To me the glow is as puzzling as this disintegration business, and probably a manifestation of the same thing. You can see how the camera stops down, showing that it is indeed much brighter. The brightness is localized to the left side of the image, and the right side gets derker as the camera stops down. This is simply not a camera artifact or reflection of the sun off white dust, it's much too bright for that. There's a similar glow after the collapse of the first building, that seems to last right up to the second collapse: http://ontario.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/bright_afterglow_of_south_tower_collapse_.avi All I can offer is that it obviously takes a large energy input to turn steel to dust, and that same energy source is probably responsible for the glow. I'm not an insider, so I have no idea what this might be, but the Tesla energy weapon yarns that Tom Bearden spins have a ring of truth. He describes scalar wave weapons, based on an expanded version of Maxwell's equations, that allow energy to be pumped from a remote site without being dissipated in the space in between. It involves two scalar waves (this is the Tesla part- conventional electromagnetics does not include this)that can carry a lot of energy, but don't interact with matter. But where the two beams intersect, energy seems to appear out of nowhere as interferance of the two scalar waves causes conversion into conventional electromagnetic radiation. Here's a link to Bearden's web site: http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/index.html "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

ramblin_dave (174 posts) Oct-09-02, 04:25 PM (ET) Reply to post #19 20. If steel was being turned to dust somehow... wouldn't there be samples of outer wall elements that were partially "decomposed". Other photos I have seen of steel at the scrapyard all looked normal to me - normal in the sense that it wasn't corroded or partially decomposed.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-09-02, 11:56 AM (ET) Reply to post #11 13. The more I know, the less I understand LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-02 AT 11:59 AM (ET) OK, I will admit it. I am not a rocket scientist. I have a fairly decent background in hard science but I cannot claim to even be related to a physicist. All the same, I can chew gum and walk at the same time. I know that the tomato is a fruit, despite the protestations of the US Supreme Court and the Reagan administration who insist that it be treated as a vegetable. I can correctly pronounce the word nuclear. That ought to count for something. So there I am, looking at the seismic waves of 9:11 and I do not know what to say. Therefore, I search for some simliar event. I myself cannot explain the behaviour of the Boeing at the Pentagon. Has anything like this ever happened before? Andrei Olkhovatov, a Russian scientist who supports many of his findings, says that a meteor 200ft across would have left at least 100,000 tonnes of debris along its approach path. “But the question arises, where are the remnants?” he asked. “Nowhere, nothing after decades of detailed research.” http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ntungusk.htm Hmmm. But what does this have to with the WTC? We had LOTS of debris in New York. Our problem here is that we cannot explain it. There were no appreciable seismic waves in Washington, but they abound in New York. All this on the same day and from the same group of people! So I start to look around. http://www.seismo.com/msop/nmsop/03%20source/source1/source1.html Off I go, looking for another instance in which there was an impact followed a considerable while later by a cloud of dust. Preferably one in which puzzled knowledegable people stated and then retracted their intial impressions regarding the formation of a cloud of dust forming a considerable time after an impact. http://www.scienceweb.org/can/news/dec97/n121997a.htm I try to find another event which has baffled many scientists of many different disciplines. http://omzg.comcen-1.nsk.su/tunguska/en/newse/abstracts/volkov.htm http://olkhov.narod.ru/tunguska.htm#35 But then I find that I am on the wrong track since this mystery was declared solved days after our own event occured. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1628806.stm And then, as things fall, I find that I really must put on my tinfoil hard hat. Meteorite crashes near mourning Jordanian village April 24, 2001 AMMAN (AFP) - Residents of a Jordanian village attending a funeral got an unwelcome surprise when a fiery meteorite crashed down in their midst, one of them told AFP Monday. "More than 100 of us were gathered Wednesday at sundown to bury a village resident when we saw a strange object that looked like a ball of fire," said Mohammed Nawaf Mikdadi, mayor of Beit Eidess, some 85 kilometers north of Amman. "The meteor shot through the sky from west to east before a part of it came down a half kilometer (quarter mile) from the village, sparking an explosion and then a fire with four-meter flames for 10 meters straight," Mikdadi told AFP. "The villagers thought it was a missile, but when we went to the spot there weren't any metal scraps," he said. The mayor expressed relief the meteorite fell on a rocky area near Beit Eidess and not in a nearby forest, which could have spelled disaster for the village. After I have read the above-given AFP report, I posted in METEOROBS emailing list that the event more resembles a geophysical event, than a meteoritic one, but the description is very brief for any solid conclusion. And soon confirmation of the geophysical interpretation appeared! Here it is in JAS www-site. Geophysical data reveals several interesting features. First, weak shallow earthquakes occur from time-to-time in the area of the event, pointing on increased level of tectonic activity in there. Especially on April 25 an earthquake took place not far from the impact place. Below are results of search for similar or stronger earthquakes through catalog of the Seismology Division of the Geophysical Institute of Israel in the area +-0.4 degrees around the impact site for the last decade. The results speak for themself. <snip> I am searching for more detailed geophysical data on the event. Also it would be very interesting to know, did the fireball deposit any substance? On May 10, 2002, I got e-mail from Dr. Claude Perron (Museum National d'Histoire Naturelle, Laboratoire de Mineralogie, Paris, France), who analysed the event soil samples. He wrote that the samples seem to be combustion residues (carbon) and ashes (calcium and potassium carbonate), together with local stones. What caused the fire, he has no idea. but he added that it is certainly not a meteorite. MORE But many other witnesses and people, who saw video of the lights reject the airplane explanation. Moreover appeared-later data makes the airplane explanation rather unlikely. Here is from www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html : Data from Newark International Airport on July 15 indicates Multiple Objects Without Transponders Detected. On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice tapes for the same time period from Newark International Airport. Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary analytical report that details unidentified flying objects without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below. The following points are to be noted: All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to get Carteret time for each data point. Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts). EWR refers to Newark International Airport. NONE of the objects in the table below had transponders. By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders (all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace around Newark International at the same time that an estimated seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported unidentified lights in the same area of sky. A request to randomly check for aircraft without transponders at the same time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that there were no objects without transponders in the air around Newark International airport on that second, randomly chosen, night. This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a large profusion of objects without transponders in the air around one of the busiest international airports in the world is unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified objects over Carteret may be of interest. http://olkhov.narod.ru/gr1997.htm#30 And then I am right back where I started. The more I know, the less I understand.

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-10-02, 07:45 PM (ET) Reply to post #13 21. Man in moon meets the WTC There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese. <snip> A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes. http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

Mr_SmokesTooMuch (2754 posts) Oct-10-02, 09:32 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 22. I'm not a scientist but I have been a machinist and welder for years and that is the first I have ever heard of such a thing and I have never seen anything like that. Acid rain, huh? Does he give any idea of how rain got into the construction of the WTC to coat the steel with this sulpher? I would think they would have noticed the roof leaking a little bit over the years!

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-11-02, 08:31 AM (ET) Reply to post #22 23. Acid rain from hell? The motherfucking smoking gun is in the house! "A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness." If anyone can explain this *without* black technology I'll be real interested to hear it. As to Ramblin_Dave's question about why it doesn't seem to affect all the steel equally, I suspect it has to do with resonance effects between the energy source and the structure. From what I know about conventional electromagnetics, there could easily be effects related to the size of pieces and the wavelength of the energy source that could spare smaller pieces but dump a lot of energy into larger pieces. This could account for the many small (~1 floor) pieces of columns that seemed to fall intact while the big chunks of the outer wall trailed thick dust clouds. The size of the pieces could also be a factor - we see pictures of the big 1'x3' box columns from the core that look unaffected. Maybe this is because they are big enough to act as a current path to ground without "burning out". Conversely, the "spire" was very thin and nothing else was standing around it to divert the energy flow, and we saw it turn very abruptly to dust. One other thought about scalar weapons - in one of Bearden's pieces (http://www.cheniere.org/books/analysis/index.html) he mentions a "metal softening mode" that the Russian Tesla weapons could employ: "On Jan. 1, 1986, a startled Frank Golden detected —and physically verified with a special technique— that a metal softening scalar EM signal had been added onto the Soviet Woodpecker signals. Thus, at that time the Soviet Union was preparing to exercise a metal softening test at some future time, in some location over the U.S.** ** Note this signal could also have been present for the Dec. 12 destruction of the Arrow DC-8 at Gander AFB, Newfoundland." More scalar weapons links at http://home.attbi.com/~jmking/wsb/html/view.cgi-showresources.html-TopRes-Tesla-2C-20scalar-20devices-20and-209-2F11.html "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-11-02, 12:06 PM (ET) Reply to post #23 24. The latest from Tom Bearden - scalar EM weapons in Iraq? http://www.rense.com/general30/mager.htm "Find out just what the people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglas (1857) PlaguePuppy's Café

DulceDecorum (302 posts) Oct-11-02, 02:54 PM (ET) Reply to post #25 26. Doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg* True! Of course it is! <...> I have given you the story just as Mother told it to me, years ago. Why, there is not a child in Holland who does not know it. And <...> you may not think so, but that little boy represents the spirit of the whole country. Not a leak can show itself anywhere either in its politics, honor, or public safety, that a million fingers are not ready to stop it, at any cost. http://home.planet.nl/~meder/map12/hansbrinker.html *The fall of Tidde Winnenga (scroll down) People, we have our own personal cadre of heroic Hans Brinkersmen. Not a leak can show itself anywhere that certain fingers are not ready to stop it, at any cost.

plaguepuppy (357 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:18 AM (ET) Reply to post #32 36. Dragging dust - not so stunning "Here's another not so stunning piece of reasoning." Well at least your self image is getting more realistic. "...the sections fell through the dust plume. The mass and shape of the section at a higher speed have dragged some dust with the section as it falls." And pigs might look like ravens, if they had wings and feathers. Here are some better views of large chunks of the outer wall shedding dense trails of dust: (Thanks to Edminion for pictures) A dense object moving through a cloud of dust would actually leave a trail with *less* dust than the surrounding space. Here we see objects falling through dust-free space and leaving thick trails of dust behind, dust that obviously represents much more material than could be "dragged along". A glance at these pictures shows that there is much more going on than dust swirling in the trail of a moving object. "Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage." N.Y. Daily News, 4/16/02 PlaguePuppy's Café

LARED (449 posts) Oct-12-02, 09:59 AM (ET) Reply to post #36 38. Let me ask you a serious question Do you actually believe those photos are evidence of the steel vaporizing? Really? I mean there are at least two very simple explainations for the trails of dust. The section of facade dragged some dust with them as they fell though the dust and/or the dust was pushed between the structure elements/ columns during the collaspe and is falling out as the steel falls. Two quite reasonable explainations for what is observed. Why not examine those possibilities rather than getting worked up into a lather about "a smoking gun is in the house." It ain't even a squirt pistol.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

plaguepuppy (357 posts)